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On this newest episode of the FixSA podcast, Songezo Zibi says in a 12 months when the ANC has its elective convention there may be little or no governing that goes on.
He believes to repair South Africa a basic redesign of politics is required, and it’s excessive time the highest fifty or so enterprise leaders received right into a room to drive the tempo.
Beneath is the complete transcript of Jeremy Maggs’s interview with Zibi.
JEREMY MAGGS: Not too way back, our visitor wrote an essay that mentioned the disaster that South Africa is going through is “a golden alternative to outline the nation’s progressive politics anew, ditching the outdated ideological dogmas whose preoccupation is contestation to defeat the opposite on the expense of progress on points the place there may be broad social settlement”.
It appears to be like like he might need some good concepts on the right way to restore issues.
Welcome to the Moneyweb podcast Repair SA. My title is Jeremy Maggs. Simply to remind you, within the coming weeks our visitors might be requested how we are able to make issues higher. How can we enhance issues? How within the shortest area of time can we turn out to be a aggressive and a profitable nation? That’s what all people needs.
Songezo Zibi has greater than 20 years of company expertise, throughout which period he has been a communications and company affairs skilled. Previous to becoming a member of Absa as head of communications, he was the editor of Enterprise Day, and [is] now the convener, the chief cook dinner and bottlewasher, I feel, of a assume tank – he’ll right me if I’m fallacious – of an idea known as the Rivonia Circle. So how would he repair South Africa?
Let me get that proper, to start with, Songeza. Are you snug with the phrases ‘assume tank’?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Oh, sure, I’m. We’re a assume tank with frills, bells and whistles as a result of we’re completely different, as a result of we work on options throughout a variety of areas. So I’m very glad to be right here to speak about the right way to Repair SA.
JEREMY MAGGS: I’m wanting ahead to speaking about a few of these options. However only a fast criticism, if I’ll. I spoke to a few individuals whom I instructed I used to be going to be speaking to you, they usually mentioned, ‘Oh, not one other speak store!’ Is that what the Rivonia Circle is about? Is it a bunch of sensible guys getting round a desk and speaking, or is it greater than that?
SONGEZO ZIBI: No, it’s completely greater than that. One of many selections we took early on is that we’re going to be solutions-focused. However individuals have gotten to grasp that to be able to arrive at sensible, workable options you’ve received to do fairly a little bit of speaking. In our case we’ve been doing a number of listening, really, reasonably than speaking, which I’m fairly glad to share as we’ve this dialog, listening very intently, in order that once we do resolve to provide concepts and take motion they’ve as a lot consensus and credibility as doable, as a result of that’s what we’ve [not] had in South Africa.
We’ve [South Africa] had a scarcity of credibility proper throughout the board. Consequently, the issues we’ve tried to do have been hotly contested and simply by no means get anyplace.
JEREMY MAGGS: You possibly can hear for so long as you need, you’ll be able to try to attain that consensus, however you’ll agree with me that that clock is ticking, [and] that sooner or later you’ve received to place up your hand and say: ‘Properly, right here’s the blueprint. We now have reached the consensus, now we’re going to spring into motion.’ What would the springing into motion be?
SONGEZO ZIBI: We are literally in that section of motion, Jeremy, at this second. We’ve simply launched one thing known as the Rise Marketing campaign. South Africans must recognise what the basic downside is. I do know individuals like to speak about technical options and this coverage possibility and an enabled state and that kind of factor. We’ve received to be trustworthy with ourselves.
The politics is South Africa’s largest impediment when it comes to the financial system, when it comes to social progress, when it comes to absolutely anything that we wish to do – together with the worldwide competitiveness of the nation.
We now have the fallacious individuals on the helm. Folks in enterprise – and I come from enterprise, Jeremy – have chosen to have this dialog solely in non-public. However actually, they’re dealing and hanging their hopes on individuals they wouldn’t rent as center managers of their corporations. And so they understand it.
So we’ve received to repair the politics, no dilly-dallying and beating across the bush. Subsequently, the Rise Marketing campaign has received, as one among its core tenets, ensuring that we get that political change from 2024 onward. After which the type of issues individuals complain about and say authorities isn’t doing and so on, and so on – ‘we’ve made hundreds of pages of submissions to authorities and nothing will get completed’ – then they will get completed since you want a distinct calibre of politician.
JEREMY MAGGS: So are you a drive of affect for the time being, or sooner or later do you place up your hand and say ‘we’re a celebration’ as nicely?
SONGEZO ZIBI: The place we at the moment are is that the Rivonia Circle goes to proceed being the non-profit that it’s. The Rise Marketing campaign goes to be an animal of its personal that turns into a political motion that contests elections and so forth, whereas the Rivonia Circle continues on its path. What the Rivonia Circle has completed, in essence, is laying the idea by its work for a cohesive political different that may contest elections.
JEREMY MAGGS: Numerous organisations reminiscent of yours have risen earlier than, and I just like the title ‘Rise’, however they’ve additionally fallen. What makes you completely different, do you assume? What’s going to provide the traction that you just so want?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Jeremy, let me provide you with an instance, and I’m going to criticise my former colleagues in enterprise or the elites – and I depend myself as one of many elites in South Africa. The style by which we’ve thought and framed options to a number of the issues is outmoded and it tends to comply with what the individuals on the Union Buildings comply with.
Now, when you have a look at the unemployment and financial downside, Jeremy, 70% of the individuals with out jobs in South Africa don’t have matric.
I’m not positive what Ebrahim Patel with giant industrial society goals that he needs to do, that enterprise flocks repeatedly to talk to about beneficiation and all of those type of issues. What does that clear up for the one who really can’t get essentially the most fundamental job as a result of they didn’t end matric?
The Division of Training was in parliament in October, and mentioned the college dropout price is – watch for it – 48% or 52%. If you happen to can’t clear up that downside, you might be then not going to have the ability to be aggressive, to have the type of impression that you just wish to have. And subsequently, and right here’s the place the framing wants to vary, we are able to’t have individuals in enterprise and different sectors solely assembly with Ebrahim Patel. Certainly, certainly within the dialog there must be Blade Nzimande or the minister of upper schooling and the minister of fundamental schooling.
Enterprise has received to get into the behavior of interrogating how we’ve structured our expertise improvement programme vis-à-vis the fundamental schooling space. They don’t wish to go there as a result of it doesn’t have something to do with enterprise. And people are the type of options, a distinct framing of options, that we’re developing with.
JEREMY MAGGS: It’s additionally a lot simpler and maybe extra palatable to sip the big-vision Kool-Help than go and get soiled and talk about curricular and school rooms and fundamental companies, I assume.
SONGEZO ZIBI: Jeremy, we should body questions as merely as we are able to. Why are so many youngsters not finishing college, and what occurs to these youngsters? Are we ever going to create sufficient jobs for them? Alternately then, if we settle for that we don’t wish to do something about that downside, what sort of rudimentary early twentieth century financial system can we wish to construct in order that we are able to have someplace the place they will work, and the way aggressive or uncompetitive would that financial system be?
We don’t wish to body questions in that approach as a result of it’s too troublesome. It takes us to the realm of politics. In fact it should.
JEREMY MAGGS: I wish to reference in a second your name to motion then, so far as enterprise is worried. However I’ve framed our dialog on the essay that you just wrote that I featured in my introduction. You mentioned, partially, we’re really on our personal, we should take very clear steps to defend the Republic between now and 2024. What do you imply if you say ‘we’re really on our personal’? Songezo Zibi, that’s terrifying. How do we discover ourselves on our personal?
SONGEZO ZIBI: We needs to be terrified. We’re sitting with a snake within the room; we’re pretending that it’s not there. Jeremy, you’ve coated financial system and politics for a really very long time. We all know [that] in a 12 months when the ANC has received its elective convention there may be little or no governing that goes on. The persons are not within the workplace in any respect. They’re on the market campaigning. We all know this, as a matter of reality.
Moreover, Jeremy, a lot of them are embroiled in scandal. They’re both showing at commissions, they’re beneath investigation, they’re having legal prices in opposition to them and so forth, and the first preoccupation politically for them is escaping accountability.
We all know this. Let’s not fake this isn’t the case. We see them on TV and in newspapers and so forth daily.
Moreover, Jeremy, we now have, if we have a look at simply the previous few weeks, what [have] been the principle subjects of debate within the prime decision-making construction of the ANC – the step-aside rule, it’s been Phala Phala and so forth. Come on, Jeremy, if you’re a shareholder and you might be watching an organization spend its time combating between executives and the board…
JEREMY MAGGS: With little consideration being paid to Stage 4 blackouts.
SONGEZO ZIBI: Proper, proper. So we should name issues by their actual title. The nation is on autopilot. It isn’t sensible to hope that President Cyril Ramaphosa is the one messiah who’s going to show issues round. It’s clear that he’s not.
There isn’t any enterprise that has received hope as its technique. It is senseless to me, and but that is the place we discover ourselves.
Subsequently, in that context I actually should problem all people who’s listening to this podcast to query the position they’ve performed in pretending that issues aren’t as severe as they’re, both implicitly or explicitly – even when they don’t say so. What’s clear by our collective inaction is that we don’t assume issues are severe sufficient. However it’s not simply electrical energy, Jeremy, it’s water, proper? It’s Transnet choking the financial system. Companies is complaining on a regular basis.
JEREMY MAGGS: The checklist is limitless.
SONGEZO ZIBI: The checklist is limitless.
JEREMY MAGGS: And overarching all of this, you go on to say we’ve to speak about having to simply accept political violence. Let me say that once more: we’ve to speak about accepting political violence. Is it your opinion that we’re past any type of answer so far as that’s involved? You go on to say we’re run by legal gangs. I imply, at that time is it too late to tug issues again?
SONGEZO ZIBI: No, it’s not too late. All of it relies upon. We’ll speak, Jeremy, about why I’m saying this can be a golden alternative, by the way in which, as a result of a disaster depends upon what we make of it. It may be a big alternative for transformative motion, however you’ve received to be courageous.
JEREMY MAGGS: However there’s a effective line between disaster and disaster.
SONGEZO ZIBI: You’ve received to be daring, in fact. However let me speak concerning the political violence. Jeremy, ANC councillors and different individuals inside the ANC have been killed – in KZN largely, but additionally within the Japanese Cape the place I used to be born and the place I thought-about [that] my residence. So in different phrases, inside the context of the ANC itself these guys aren’t afraid to take one another out after they really feel the one is threatening the opposite or threatening their pursuits.
We face a state of affairs in 2024 when the ANC may be very more likely to get lower than 50%. When it comes to our personal polling will probably be fortunate to get 41% or 42%.
JEREMY MAGGS: And there’s inherent hazard in these numbers.
SONGEZO ZIBI: There’s inherent [danger]. If these guys kill one another, Jeremy, come on, what concerning the people who find themselves outdoors of that organisation? Do we expect that they’re going to say, ‘Oh, this celebration or this one that’s threatening my curiosity isn’t within the ANC; I’ll allow them to do no matter they need’. That’s Utopia. We have to cease selecting to be naïve about this stuff, as a result of Abahlali baseMjondolo have been killed. For a few years their management in KZN and auditors ……12:12 and so forth have been killed over time. So political violence past the ecosystem of the ANC is a really particular risk.
JEREMY MAGGS: So, Songezo Zibi, when you’re saying then that the most important downside we’re going through – and also you mentioned it earlier – is politics, why are we unable to come back collectively as a nation and repair it? Is the divide of cooperation now too extensive for any type of collegiality?
SONGEZO ZIBI: There are few causes, Jeremy. The primary is that there was an acceptance that the ANC is the convener of various sectors of society, whether or not it’s carrying its authorities hat or it’s carrying its party-political hat, as a result of it has been the centre of what’s known as ‘the progressive motion’. And so all of us comply with be convened by ANC ministers, by the president and so forth.
However Jeremy, this can be a 1987 motion. In 1987 or 1985 enterprise in South Africa, which was solely white when it comes to the ability construction, took a call to say the Nationwide Get together and PW Botha aren’t the way in which to the longer term. We have to discover different South Africans who need –
JEREMY MAGGS: They received onto an aeroplane, didn’t they?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Received onto an airplane and went to see the ANC in exile and others. What’s at present’s model of that motion? It takes initiative, Jeremy, it takes bravery. It takes boldness to say the nation is approach too essential than my considerations about what the powers that be – whose tenure is short-term and can quickly finish – are going to try to do to me.
JEREMY MAGGS: You go on to say, Songezo Zibi, that South Africa must signal an ethical contract.
SONGEZO ZIBI: In fact.
JEREMY MAGGS: What’s that?
SONGEZO ZIBI: One of many issues I say in the identical piece, Jeremy, is that we have to outline what binds us collectively. For my part what binds us collectively are the values of our Structure – not simply the statutes, the values of our Structure.
JEREMY MAGGS: Please don’t use the phrase ‘resilience’, as a result of we’re getting very uninterested in that phrase ‘resilience’.
SONGEZO ZIBI: You recognize, being powerful could be a dangerous factor as a result of it means you tolerate a number of nonsense, and I don’t agree with that. So principally we imagine that the South African Structure is social-democratic in nature. What does that imply? What are the values of social democracy? They’re freedom, they’re equality, they’re justice, they’re solidarity. And I feel you’ll be able to add a fifth one within the South African context, particularly in gentle of our latest historical past. You say integrity.
Right here’s a query. Can we construct a consensus round these values? Might we proper throughout celebration political traces and enterprise pursuits and so forth? I feel if we did we would take all of those and name them ubuntu as nicely, as a result of they resonate with some.
JEREMY MAGGS: And your rivalry is that there’s that prepared majority to try this?
SONGEZO ZIBI: In fact there may be.
JEREMY MAGGS: What are they afraid of?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Right here’s the factor, Jeremy. As any person who spent the final 12 months in all kinds of locations from Camps Bay to Qumbu within the Japanese Cape and so forth, the individuals I discovered are prepared to maneuver tomorrow to drive political change.
JEREMY MAGGS: However why aren’t they doing so?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Grasp on, grasp on. The individuals within the villages, within the townships and the semi-urban areas, these guys don’t wait. They wish to transfer. Right here’s what individuals say. They are saying: ‘How are you going to succeed, you?’ Again there they are saying, ‘What are we doing tomorrow?’ That’s the distinction.
And when you settle for that in any society the elites transfer the cheese, you’ve received a disconnection between individuals who don’t wish to take duty and say, ‘What are you as Songezo going to do?’ and tens of millions who say, ‘What are we going to do?’
So right here’s what we’ve completed on the social compact……16:16 as a result of what you then find yourself with, you’re going to finish up with the lots who desire a sure agenda and Johnnies-come-lately who’re the elites, who thought it was only a Songezo factor the place it is advisable to drive this. And that’s our downside.
That’s why we’re beginning on the degree of values, as a result of all of us want to choose about whether or not these values signify who we expect we’re.
JEREMY MAGGS: What then is the system for coalescing, then, these two very disparate teams who’ve such numerous agendas?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Let me share with you what we have really been doing. We haven’t simply been speaking to particular person organisations in villages and other people and people and so forth. We’ve additionally been very deliberate in talking to business-interest teams at a neighborhood degree and at a regional degree. And saying that you just –
JEREMY MAGGS: These are small chambers of commerce, that type of factor?
SONGEZO ZIBI: I’ll come to the rich individuals as nicely, and the businesses. We are able to discuss that as a result of I do have some views that folks don’t like, however we should have the dialog.
So these guys are the fellows who used to ask the ANC into their area and platform them. They need a distinct dialog now. That’s how we’re in a position to get into that dialog as a result of they don’t have the deep pockets to cushion themselves from load shedding and water and these sorts of factor and [for] shopping for a diesel generator.
JEREMY MAGGS: To your level, they’re on their very own.
SONGEZO ZIBI: They’re on their very own, in order that they wish to transfer, proper? The fellows who’re in a position to spend an additional R3 million right here and R5 million to airfreight issues whereas Transnet is falling aside, nonetheless say, ‘Ah, I hope we get a greater chief of the ANC’. That’s the distinction.
In order that’s what we’ve additionally recognised, and we have to be trustworthy, Jeremy, why this 1987 second isn’t being captured in the way in which that we might in 1987 or enterprise might. You had a super-concentrated financial system again then. The house owners of the property and the wealth additionally occurred to be the individuals who have been largely working these property, the ……18:18 excessive miles …… and people type of individuals. That’s a reality.
The South African financial system has modernised and deconcentrated, and subsequently what you find yourself with are extremely paid managers of different individuals’s property. That’s what executives of JSE-listed corporations are and subsequently they’re naturally constrained. They will’t take arbitrary selections to say, politically we’re going to go this manner, as a result of shareholders are advanced, they’re from right here and abroad and that type of factor.
Sadly this actuality of recent enterprise has additionally meant that you’ve a bunch of people that management an enormous supply of the financial system, who’re infinitely indecisive and unclear when it comes to the place they assume the nation must be, as a result of they’re making an attempt to handle a number of pursuits. That’s the truth of being an government in a listed firm, and I’ve labored in listed corporations all my life. That’s a reality.
So you’ll be able to’t ask – and I’ll point out Sim [Tshabalala] as a result of we all know one another – you’ll be able to’t ask Sim to make a particular assertion about politics as a result of his chairman goes to cellphone him and ask him, ‘What are you speaking about?’ It’s simply completely different.
JEREMY MAGGS: Only for context, you’re speaking about Sim Tshabalala, the primary visitor on the Repair SA podcast.
SONGEZO ZIBI: Sure. I’m speaking about Sim. That’s a actuality. What I discover is that prime web price South Africans who’ve actual pores and skin within the sport – not that Sim doesn’t, he does, and he actually cares about South Africa and is vastly patriotic, I do know him – these individuals are inclined to have a distinct dialog, it’s much less tentative. They’re like, ‘Hey man, this may’t go on, one thing’s received to be completed,’ and that type of factor. And subsequently you’ll be able to’t discover much less dilly-dallying…….20:01
Subsequently I feel what enterprise has to resolve is the right way to get across the realities of its personal shareholder and governance dynamics to be able to drive a cohesive political agenda.
JEREMY MAGGS: We’ve reached the crux of the dialog then. What’s the name to motion, notably so far as enterprise is worried? You’ve checked out small enterprise operators, you’ve talked concerning the massive corporates, the multinationals. Virtually, what’s the name to motion then to be able to seize on that 1987 second?
SONGEZO ZIBI: That is what I’d do, and do it publicly – or a minimum of say publicly that we’re going to do it. I’d say Busa, BLSA and all of those organisations must say [that] on such and such a day we’re going to meet to debate the political state of affairs within the nation, as a result of it’s untenable. Whereas we don’t know what the result of that dialog goes to be, we have to determine a approach out of right here as a result of we’re answerable for tens of millions of individuals’s jobs in South Africa. We’re answerable for billions in shareholder cash. We’re answerable for an entire bunch of issues. What we all know is that the whole lot we’ve tried over the past 15 years simply has not produced the outcomes that South Africa ought to have.
We’re going to have that dialog. We’ll see what the result is. It’s a daring step as a result of it defines a transparent agenda. You make your self publicly accountable and also you fortify your self in opposition to any person who says, ‘Oh, they went to fulfill in secret,’ and this sort of factor.
Now they will come out with a broad decision, however I feel that bravery to say we’ll meet on our personal with out Pravin Gordon and Ebrahim Patel or Cyril [Ramaphosa], and are available to our personal determination about what to do with this untenable political state of affairs within the nation.
JEREMY MAGGS: What you’re saying is that it’s time they throw down the gauntlet.
SONGEZO ZIBI: In fact they have to throw down the gauntlet. Pay attention, Jeremy, this nation has been propped up by the non-public sector and civil society. We all know this. Had been it not for the NGOs and enterprise, the nation would’ve lengthy [ago] sunk into the drain.
JEREMY MAGGS: We’ve received two inquiries to go, as a result of I’m very cognisant of time. Each time we report this I come again to the entire idea of Repair SA.
What would outline, in your opinion, within the very quick time period – and let’s acknowledge it’s not going to occur throughout this elective time, however in 2023 – what would represent a few short-term wins to be able to begin the method of fixing?
SONGEZO ZIBI: I’d counsel that these within the enterprise sector – and never essentially those that head up the chambers however the captains of enterprise – like Fani Titi at Investec and Sim Tshabalala and so forth – must on their very own resolve that they’re going to formulate along with their companions –
JEREMY MAGGS: It’s most likely about 50 people, am I proper?
SONGEZO ZIBI: There are most likely about 50 people. Let’s say the highest 40-plus different privately owned important enterprises. They should say we’re reaching out to organise labour past Cosatu, we’re reaching out to civil society organisations to say what the deal we select to have is, and what we imagine goes to result in a system that recovers this financial system and reveals financial justice and so forth. We’re going to do that on our personal with out being convened by the ANC or authorities. That’s essential as a result of, Jeremy, that deal or that broad settlement that comes out of that isn’t ……23:55 to the ANC dropping energy. It allows actors within the financial system to have interaction with no matter political constructions emerge on the idea of very clear ideas, very clear priorities, they usually’re in a position to extract on behalf of the financial system and society a transparent pound of political flesh.
JEREMY MAGGS: However an strategy like that’s fraught with danger, as a result of little question the ANC will cry betrayal, the EFF will play the white-monopoly capital card, the Democratic Alliance will really feel utterly marginalised. In order that comes with danger, doesn’t it?
SONGEZO ZIBI: Robust, powerful. What are they going to do? Shut down these corporations. What are they going to do? Robust. I mentioned we have to be daring. We have to develop some, you already know –
JEREMY MAGGS: I feel I do know the a part of the anatomy that you just’re in search of.
Final query. You’re a younger man, however I put this query to all of my visitors. Whenever you’re speaking to your kids and even your grandchildren, let’s say in 20/25 years’ time, what is going to you inform them concerning the time that you’re dwelling in proper now? However extra importantly, what’s their position in carrying the baton?
SONGEZO ZIBI: I’m hoping to inform them that I managed to not lose the baton, and that baton is on the market for them to take ahead. Proper now we’re vulnerable to dropping the baton to start with as a result of we don’t wish to be daring and discover one another and create the options. That’s what I’m afraid of.
JEREMY MAGGS: In that very same essay that I referred to, which is on the Each day Maverick if I’m not mistaken, Songeza Zibi additionally says – and I quote – ‘The essential factor is to be clearheaded concerning the widespread threats we face, our persevering with priorities and to seek out methods for patriotic South Africans to work collectively’.
Songeza, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us on Repair SA. My title’s Jeremy Maggs. Thanks for listening.
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